Welcome back to the Reread! We were planning to do a big “the book so far” wrap-up post this week in addition to chapter Eighty-Seven, but… it was a little too big, so we’ll have an entire article next week dedicated to that. In the meantime, we’ll discuss Chapter Eighty-Seven all on its lonesome, as well as discuss a few points that people requested in the comment section last week. Batten down the hatches, folks. It’s about to get intense up in here!
Reminder: We’ll potentially be discussing spoilers for the entire novel in each reread—if you haven’t read ALL of Oathbringer, best to wait to join us until you’re done.
No spoilers for other works this week. You’re safe!
Chapter Recap
WHO: Adolin
WHERE: Shadesmar!Kholinar
WHEN: 1174.2.3.3 (immediately after Chapter 85)
The Oathgate control building shakes and shifts its platform into Shadesmar, dumping Adolin into the beads until Azure pulls him out. Two enormous spren hover above them; below, Pattern and Syl take their Shadesmar forms along with a weird-looking woman/spren. They, with Kaladin, Azure, Shallan, and Adolin himself, are the only people there.
Truth, Love, and Defiance
Title: This Place
Azure looked up at the sky. “Damnation,” she said softly. “I hate this place.”
AA: “This place” is obviously Shadesmar, and as much as we’ve been fascinated by it, apparently those who experience it don’t all find it worthy of appreciation. We’ll explore that reasoning as we make our way through Part Four!
Heralds: Jezrien, Shalash, Vedel, Chana
AA: One of the most obvious (and, IMO, legitimate) ways to explain the four Heralds here is to associate them with the four humans. Jezrien represents his Windrunner, Kaladin, and his spren Sylphrena. Shalash reflects her Lightweaver, Shallan, and her spren Pattern. Vedel, presumably, represents Adolin with his Edgedancer-blade. That leaves Chana to be associated with Azure, which makes sense as she takes on the role of Guard so frequently.
Adolin has often been associated with Chana, but in this case I don’t see how Azure would be linked to Vedel, so… we’ll go with the first proposition. For what it’s worth, we had the WoB confirming that she was an Edgedancer’s Blade, which someone had figured out based on her appearance, before Oathbringer came out. In any case, this description and the upcoming journey should make it very clear; this is a “sibling” to Wyndle.
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Shardbearer, meaning we get this last chapter from Adolin’s POV.
Epigraph:
Good night, dear Urithiru. Good night, sweet Sibling. Good night, Radiants.
—From drawer 29-29, ruby
AA: Interestingly enough, this is a Dustbringer recording. I don’t generally associate this kind of affection with the Dustbringers, but that’s probably completely unfair of me. Anyway, this is clearly a farewell to the tower, and to the Sibling who (in my opinion, anyway) likely gives life and functionality to the tower city. It may be viewed as foreshadowing to say “good night” to the Radiants, since the Recreance was only a few decades away; in intent, it was probably referring to the way the Radiants would be dispersed when they left Urithiru, finding new homes elsewhere. Certainly some would remain in groups, and perhaps even whole Orders would stay together, but they would no longer have a single, central place that belonged to them.
L: All I can think of when I read this is “Goodnight, Moon.”
AP: Goodnight stars, goodnight air, goodnight voidbringers everywhere!
AA: LOL
Bruised & Broken
L: I’d like to take a moment here to address the concerns of one of our most frequent commenters, Gepeto. They’ve expressed concern that Adolin’s lack of grieving might pose a problem for him emotionally down the road. We believe that this is being addressed “off-screen.” Just as we didn’t see Jasnah and Navani’s reunion, Sanderson probably doesn’t have a secondary reason to show these scenes. We know that they’d fulfill the “character” portion, but would they also serve to advance the plot or the worldbuilding? If not, then the book is already long enough and scenes like this probably hit the cutting room floor or weren’t deemed important enough to show in the first place. However, this doesn’t mean they aren’t happening. I fully believe that Adolin is taking the time to grieve his losses between the scenes. This doesn’t mean that he’s being short-shrifted by Sanderson, or that he’s any less of an important character. It just means that these scenes wouldn’t serve the narrative as a whole.
AA: This is something I’ve observed in other areas as well. For example, many readers were frustrated about not seeing any reunions with Jasnah. I understand the frustration, but I can also see that it wouldn’t have added anything substantive to the story he’s telling—or at any rate, nothing he couldn’t achieve better in a different way. The same goes for Adolin and Shallan’s wedding at the end of the book. It happened, but the narrative wouldn’t be served by showing it. Same with his decision not to write sex scenes: It’s safe to assume that Dalinar and Navani are actively enjoying one another, beginning with their wedding night, but we don’t need awkwardly-written descriptions to prove it.
It may or may not be a weakness, depending on the reader, but Sanderson doesn’t seem to dwell in-depth on the process of grieving. Everyone grieves differently, so it’s difficult to portray without resorting to stereotypes; in any case, we haven’t seen much. When Jasnah was presumed dead, the little we saw of anyone grieving was in service to character development, such as Navani’s comments about the only way to mother Jasnah was to not let her know you were doing it. That tells us a lot about both women. Later in this book, we’ll see Navani and Adolin weeping together over Elhokar, though we’re not really told what either is thinking.
My expectation is that we’re to understand that people have grieved for their loved ones. If their thoughts in the process will help the story in some way, we’ll get those thoughts; if not, not. That’s not to say that Brandon couldn’t decide that he wants to write an arc with Adolin’s refusal to grieve being an issue, but I don’t think he will. He’s pretty much done that gig with Shallan’s voluntary amnesia, as well as Dalinar’s Cultivation-induced amnesia; both were ways of dealing with grief by not dealing with it. IMO, Adolin doesn’t need to go there too.
Buy the Book
Fate of the Fallen
AP: All good points. I also think that right now they are in survival mode. Adolin is an experienced soldier. Though the loss of his cousin and nephew is probably devastating, he has to focus on the task at hand—escaping the city and then being thrown into Shadesmar, where he almost immediately starts to drown in beads. And then the entire arc of trying to find their way back. There’s not a lot of opportunity for mourning loss in a visible way at this point. At this point, overwhelming grief would be a distraction to the mission, and he is too well trained for that.
Places & Peoples
L: RogerPavelle in the comments last week asked us to discuss the “Old Magic” and possible connections to architecture (windblades, Urithiru). I’m assuming that he’s referring to whether or not the Sibling is somehow attached to Urithiru… Alice, you want to take it away on this one, since this is your theory-baby?
AA: But of course!! I love to speculate on things like this, even though we have very little evidence to go on. (Never stopped me before, can’t stop me now.)
One key tidbit comes in a WoB telling us that the Old Magic is specifically linked to the Valley. As you know, Bob, the Valley is where you go to find the Nightwatcher and ask for your boon. This indicates that the Old Magic is tied to either the Nightwatcher, Cultivation, or both. Digging back into that connection, we know that the Nightwatcher was a major spren on Roshar even before Cultivation and Honor came to town, and that Cultivation “adopted” the Nightwatcher in much the same way as Honor adopted the Stormfather.
The windblades seem to be associated with the various cities with cymatic formations, and there’s been in-book speculation that they are the original Dawncities, created by the Dawnsingers. (Kholinar, Akinah, Vedenar, and Thaylen City are the examples provided by Kabsal; there’s a possibility that Sesemalex Dar is also one such.) This makes a lot of sense, in that sound is an essential part of cymatics. Urithiru, on the other hand, doesn’t fit the cymatic construction, so I think it has to have been made differently—but that’s not to say that one didn’t inspire the other. (IMO, Urithiru would have been inspired by the Dawncities.) If this is correct—that the Dawnsingers formed the Dawncities using cymatics and large quantities of Investiture—it seems probable that the Old Magic would be involved. But… what is the Old Magic, anyway?
If the Dawncities were made before the arrival of Honor and Cultivation, it seems reasonable to think that the Great Spren1 were involved—and I’m assuming that the three Great Spren represent the storms (atmosphere of the planet), life (growing things on the planet), and the continent (rock, mountains, what-have-you landforms of the planet). The three could have worked in harmony with the Dawnsingers (a.k.a. the parsh, a.k.a. the Singers) to create these beautiful rock formations which also protect them from the highstorms. It’s quite possible that the Nightwatcher is simply the only one of the Great Spren which remains associated in the minds of humans with the magic that came before the Shards arrived—that is, the inherent magic of Adonalsium when he formed the planet, now referred to as the Old Magic.
Alternatively, the Dawncities could have been created after the arrival of the Shards, based on their greater knowledge. There’s a strong implication that the Shards had a good relationship with the parsh (and presumably the Aimians) for many years (likely centuries or millennia) before they welcomed the humans fleeing Ashyn. If the cymatic works were done by the Shards instead of with the Great Spren, much of the same dynamic might still apply, except that over time, the Old Magic came to mean Cultivation rather than the Nightwatcher/Adonalsium’s magic.
There are a couple primary supports for this idea, and I’m probably going to miss some other hints. The Alethi think of Cultivation as “pagan superstition”—though we know she’s a Shard and every bit as real and powerful as Honor ever was—only worshipped by those silly heathens to the West. They also think of the Old Magic as pagan (though not as superstition, since they go to the Nightwatcher shockingly often). It’s possible that, since Honor holds the place of “Almighty” in Vorinism, tradition somehow morphed into viewing Cultivation as a sort of opposing deity and then into dismissal as superstition.
Initially, though, it seems humans knew about both Shards, so it’s feasible that over the years, understanding simply shifted so that Honor was the “known” deity, and the other power was… well, not forgotten, but relegated to obscurity. It seems likely that, since the Heralds were associated with Honor more than with Cultivation, he was the one who took the more active role while she stepped back and was simply less visible. (It’s also possible that this was done deliberately by the two Shards, in an effort to shield her from Odium’s… odium.)
Does this prove anything? Not really. It’s my personal opinion that the Dawncities were created by the Shards working through the Great Spren and the Singers, but I can’t prove it. As for Urithiru, my theory is that it was formed centuries or millennia later, formed specifically for the Knights Radiant, with the Shards and the same Great Spren involved but this time working through a team of Radiants and their Surges.
The fact that both the windblades and the tower have strata that take strange forms is, I think, an indication that both were artificially formed. So far, however, we have no indication that the windblades have any kind of active function in the way it seems probable that Urithiru would, if only it were powered up. So… those are my best guesses, based on what little we know about any of these subjects!
Cosmere Connections
…But where had it taken them?
Azure looked up at the sky. “Damnation,” she said softly. “I hate this place.”
AA: Well, if by some chance you missed all the myriad clues along the way, this should tell you there’s something different about Azure. She recognizes Shadesmar, and sounds very much like she’s physically been there before. (She has; we’ll learn more about it later.)
AP: Yes, this is a dead giveaway that she isn’t from around here. I also really want more information about world hopping and where the gateways/perpendicularities are. I’m very eager to get to the cosmere level phase where we see characters going from place to place instead of just showing up unexpectedly on other planets. Bring on the crossovers!
A Scrupulous Study of Spren
Hovering in the air were two enormous spren… thirty feet tall … One was pitch-black in coloring, the other red. … they shifted, one turning eyes down to look at him.
AA: Welp. That would be enough to freak you out, if shifting Realms and almost drowning in beads hadn’t already done the job. Poor Adolin—everything familiar is gone, except the humans with him.
L: Yeah, this is pretty terrifying. It seems as though the size of the spren in the cognitive realm is somewhat indicative of their power, unless I’m very much mistaken. The non-sapient spren are tiny, the sapient ones are human-sized, and the Unmade are HUGE. This doesn’t bode particularly well for trying to destroy them eventually…
AA: Some of the non-sapient ones are pretty big and dangerous on this side, but the Unmade… yeah. I wonder what would happen if they tried to attack an Unmade in both realms at the same time.
AP: Since the Unmade, like other spren, exist in two realms at once, I think it’s likely that they have to be attacked from both realms (physical and cognitive) to be defeated. It’s likely that there are different weaknesses/vulnerabilities that exist in each realm. Perhaps not as opposite as the land/water inversion, but probably equally as significant.
“Oh, this is bad,” someone said nearby. “So very, very bad.”
Adolin looked and found the speaker to be a creature in a stiff black costume, with a robe that seemed—somehow—to be made of stone. In place of its head was a shifting, changing ball of lines, angles, and impossible dimensions.
AA: Not so cute on this side, our Pattern. More like terrifying, if you stop and think about it!
L: I dunno, I always thought that Pattern’s “true” form was pretty damn cool, myself. I can see how the lack of a human face would be disconcerting, but still… cool.
AP: I agree on coolness factor! It’s also a good way to remind folks about the creepy way that cryptics manifest to potential Lightweavers in the physical realm. It would be utterly terrifying to have scribble-headed robed figures showing up out of the corner of your eye.
AA: Cool, absolutely. Cute? Not so much. No renegade Roomba in this realm! Speaking of looking different…
… a young woman with blue-white skin, pale as snow, wearing a filmy dress that rippled in the wind.
AA: Has Adolin seen Syl before? Obviously not lifesize, but it seems he may recognize her here. At least, it seems he’s aware that she and Pattern are spren, because he observes that:
Another spren stood beside her, with ashen brown features that seemed to be made of tight cords, the thickness of hair. She wore ragged clothing, and her eyes had been scratched out, like a canvas someone had taken a knife to.
L: Hello, Maya! I’m really excited to start rereading this part, as her gradual reawakening was one of the coolest parts of the rest of the book for me.
AA: Oh, totally. This was a tremendous revelation, and I love the way it builds through the rest of the book.
AP: I’m also in the Maya fan club! I’m looking forward to her story.
Other Brilliant (‽) Discussion
KiManiak in the comments last week asked if there were any particular of-note conversations during the beta read of part 3.
L: The only one that’s coming to mind immediately is the Kaladin/Adolin/Shallan/Veil “triangle.” Brandon wasn’t quite sure if he wanted to include this or not, so the version we initially read didn’t have Veil mooning over Kal. We were asked for our input at the end of the book, and there was quite a rousing discussion on it, with lots of readers weighing in with opinions all over the place.
AA: Lyndsey, the Master of Understatement! Heh. That was a rousing discussion to say the least. The funny part (to me) was how several of us who were vehemently anti-love-triangle changed our position on it, given the proposed resolution. I’m sure it doesn’t make everyone happy, but IMO it works so well with Shallan’s personality-dissociation to have one personality attracted to Kaladin and another to Adolin. (And Radiant trying to be all logical and weigh the advantages of each made me laugh!)
Anyway, IIRC Brandon beefed up the Veil/Kaladin attraction a little, which we’ve already seen happening, and made it a smidge clearer that it was Veil, not Shallan, who was drooling over him. (I am personally always amazed at how much difference he can make with just a few words here and there!)
AP: I was on the other side of this. I hate love triangles in general. I think they are overdone, and rarely is there a new aspect to it. I’m a huge horror/thriller fan, especially crime dramas and the “multiple personalities made me do it” trope is a huge one there. I would have preferred a non-romantic reason for Veil to prefer Kaladin’s company, like that they are of a similar social class, or comrades in arms. She isn’t a soldier, but she is a spy, and is more practically minded. What I think it does accomplish is highlighting the dysfunction that Shallan is experiencing with her constructed personas. I use Dissociative Identity Disorder to describe Shallan’s mental state. It’s not really that, but it’s adjacent. There are a lot of features in common, and she is losing conscious control over her initial constructs. You can see this in particular when she starts to argue with “herself” as Shallan/Veil/Radiant. In that sense, having Veil prefer Kaladin to Adolin is a good indicator of this progression.
AA: There was also a great debate about whether or not Elhokar was really dead. It pretty much came down to “no sword, no dead” vs. “somebody has to stay dead.” Oh, and I just went back and reviewed the beta comments for the end of Chapter 86… Talk about weeping and wailing and gnashing of teeth! So many comments, SO MAD AT MOASH. “Wait, did he just kick a toddler??”
AP: He nudged him out of the way! Unlike Dalinar, who murdered the whole family at the Rift. Ahem…I’m getting off track. Yeah, I totally lobbied for “characters who are dead stay dead”. Because after Jasnah, loads of folks would be expecting a miraculous save if it wasn’t reallyreallreally clear that Elhokar was really most sincerely dead.
AA: IIRC, in the final version, Sanderson made sure to include the appearance of Sunraiser to eliminate the question. Also, he confirmed it the first chance he got. Poor Elhokar.
Next week will be the Big Book-So-Far Recap. If there are things you still want us to address, leave them in the comments! We’ll go over Questions That Haven’t Been Answered, Interesting TidBits to Note, and Major Themes.
Alice is back from her vacation in Montana, and—naturally—up to her ears in the resultant laundry. Oh, special. But she’ll be off again soon.
Lyndsey is going right from being cast in one Renn Faire directly into fight rehearsals for another. If you’re an aspiring author, a cosplayer, or just like geeky content, follow her work on Facebook or Instagram.
Aubree has returned from her worldhopping ways. Like Hoid, she comes and goes as she pleases and shows up when you least expect it.
[1]I’m using the term Great Spren to reference the Stormfather, Nightwatcher, and Sibling collectively. As far as I know, this is not a canonical term; I’m just using it for convenience.
Not much to say for this one, great reread! i’m glad it’s back. One of the only things i do gotta say is about Brandon’s writing grief. He’s done it before….when it’s important to the plot. Sazed in Mistborn, for example. His entire arc was grief and the crisis of his faith. kaladin and his survival guilt. The grief only seems to come into play when it furthers a goal to the character. Adolin, besides losing a family member, doesn’t really have a connection with his grief and his character. He wasn’t the one who was there when Elhokar died, and his duty at that point was to get out of there and get the rest of the team to safety. I know some of my fellow commenters think Adolin needs to break away from his father, but at this point: Duty is one of his primary character attributes, and him not following his duty would be out of character,, especially in a crisis and a battle.
I love this chapter. While I am ambivalent over the whole Shadesmar sequence, not unlike many other readers, I did think this was a very strong start and not just because Brandon saw fit to write the crew’s first steps into the magical realm from Adolin’s viewpoint, but also because it was perfectly spooky. Until it became a *yawn* shopping spree, but we’ll get there in a few weeks.
I did freak out with poor Adolin sent to drown in the beads just as I was ectatic at *finally* seeing him reat to something. And he’s freaking out! He panics. He is drowning which is, well horrifying. This was a good narrative, too bad Brandon didn’t keep with it during the Shadesmar sequence. Reading Adolin slowly losing what confidence he has would have made a more engaging narrative, IMHO, than *yawn* shopping for under-clothes.
I don’t think Adolin ever saw Syl before. She hates him, so I doubt she would have shown herself to him.
And yeh, Maya! I requesy my member of the fan club too, please.
I am delighted to see my name pop-up within the review! Ah the grieving. I think I need to say a few words on my many claims and speculations. As a reader, I tend to be far more invested within character development than other narrative aspects and, well, I really enjoy Adolin’s character. As such, every narrative element surrounding Adolin, the less flesh out of the main characters (IMHO), is thus susceptible to become a plot point for his future development. Will they all be? Nope. But I sure love trying to see which string Brandon will choose to pull on.
Back in WoR, I launched the argument Adolin’s relationship with his father wasn’t as pristine clean and perfect as it seemed. I argued Dalinar was pressuring Adolin and Adolin was starting to feel this pressure. At the time, my argumentation was receive with lots of negative comments (even some personal attacks as how dare I say Dalinar perhaps wasn’t the greatest of all fathers?). Readers counter argued there was nothing but deep respect and love built within this relationship. What I saw as “clues”, others saw as “not important” or “not significant” or “I am misinterpreting them”. Still, when OB got out I was delighted to find out… I was actually right. Not only Dalinar hasn’t always been a great father, he *is* pressuring Adolin, though probably not intentionally, but still and Adolin isn’t fully comfortable with the path he has been forced to walk on. The formely father/son relationship all saw had not the glimmer of wrong in it suddenly became… not quite what it first seemed.
Hence, am I right about the grieving? I do not know, but I do see it as a narrative aspect Brandon could choose to explore with the character. While it may be true Adolin is grieving in a perfectly healthy way behind back doors, I did however note how Brandon saw fit to emphasize his inner motto on more than one occasion just has he will later emphasize on Adolin not allowing himself the time to grief for Elhokar. All because of “Responsibility” and “Duty”… Adolin is a man who isn’t walking on the right path, he is walking on a path he was told he had to walk. This essentially ends up being the core of what Vivenna, and later Shallan, tells him: “You do not have to be what others make of you.”. But can Adolin be his own person or will the pressure to take on the duties his father want for him be too strong? Can Adolin *really* be allowed to have the luxury of finding his own path given he is literally *forced* to take on responsibilities? He can’t runaway like Shallan, ask for a lobotomy like Dalinar or just stop fighting like Kaladin. He just can’t. And I find it very interesting.
I disagree going there with Adolin would be redundant with Dalinar nor Shallan’s narrative as none of theirs have to do with actual grief. They have to do with responsibility. Dalinar’s issues were a stubborn refusal to admit his own wrongs, his refusal to accept he is guilty of a war crime whereas Shallan takes full responsibility, but refuses to see circumstances forced her to. This isn’t about grief, theirs (and Kaladin’s) is all about responsibility and owning to their actions. Adolin’s character has been going in a different direction for a while now: he is taking full responsibility for his actions, he is accepting the context may have forced his hand, he isn’t blaming nor victimizing himself, but he isn’t allowing himself to emotionally process events. Dalinar, Shallan and Kaladin have done nothing else but emotionally processing their past. They aren’t trying to grief their lost ones, they are trying to accept what responsibility (or non responsibility in Kaladin’s case) they have in their death.
And IMHO, overwhelming grief cannot be controlled… Others argued Kaladin couldn’t control going catatonic, so why is it so implausible Adolin may lose his focus if forced through circumstances he cannot move through as easily?
Also, not everything within this book serves to advance the world-building. At least half of Shallan and Kaladin’s page time has no other purpose but to flesh out their emotions within deeper levels. So why can’t a few sentences be used to the same effect on another main character, albeit a lesser one? Therefore, I definitely think Brandon did not drop in those elements for no valid reasons, he did it because it is important to Adolin’s character. It might not be important within the way I am foreseeing, but I do think there is something important hidden in there.
Now as to the missing reunion in between Navani and Jasnh, I disagree it serves no purpose. It serves the purpose of fleshing out two characters who definitely needed fleshing out and it also serves the purpose to emphasize how those characters aren’t evolving within closed vases. They are evolving one next to the other and, yes, they will react to events not only as individuals, but also as a group. Relationship has been and still is Brandon’s weakest writing element and it shows in OB. By thinking a handful of emotional scenes weren’t needed because they serve no world-building purposes Brandon is missing out on what allows stories to come to life: people, emotions, characters.
Hence, those missing scenes had a purpose which could never be accomplished throughout other means: building up realistic, plausible and relatable characters relationships as opposed to have them walk through the motions without ever inter-acting one with another. The end result is Navani feels “off” (at least she does for me) and some readers aren’t getting the softer side of Jasnah.
This being said, I agree about the sex. Sex scenes are rarely required. The wedding however… This was lack-luster. We’ve been waiting for it and we saw none of it. I am *still* hoping Brandon will write it and release it as a short story.
Fot the rest, huh, I did think Elhokar was still alive… I didn’t think Brandon would kill anyone, not after Jasnah here, so I claim guilty here!
On Love Triangles: I do not hate love triangles and I feel the hate they are getting is disproportionate and linked towards a handful of badly handled ones. I was satisfied with how Brandon chose to conclude this one, but I will also say it absolutely did not live up to the expectations of the readers who were really digging into it. My thoughts are Brandon never considered readers would hook up on the chasm scene as much as they did (poor Brandon, if he didn’t see this one coming, then he really struggles with romantic relationships and how they are being perceived!), so he never really planned for a stronger conclusion. In retrospect, I would say part of the issue with how it concludes seems to boil down to Adolin never getting a word to say on it. Whether Brandon wanted it to be one or not, it *was* a love triangle, all readers see it as one, but he forgot to write in how one of the members felt (probably because he didn’t think it was important, but it was, for some readers, it was important). Giving us Adolin’s viewpoint on his relationship with Shallan would do wonders to help win over those readers who *still* cannot see them as genuine.
On the Edgedancer theory: This theory actually existed a loooong time before we got the confirmation Adolin’s blade was an Edgedancer. Fun fact, the guy who asked for it wasn’t even a part of those discussions, he had no idea, he just randomly asked what he thought was a good question. And he got the WoB which would, slowly and painfully (it was amazing how many readers just *wanted* Adolin to be a Dustbringer or anything else BUT an Edgedancer), help win readers over the Edgedancer theory, progressively having the Dustbringer one lose popularity.
When Azure said”Damnation, I hate this place” I was so excited to hope someone would ask her when she was there before! Alas, not to be, yet! I also can’t wait to hear more of her travels.
Adolin, is in survival mode, he will always follow his training. I agree with Steve @1 It would be out of character if he acted any other way.
I think the 30 ft tall black spren and red spren were elsecaller and willshaper spren respectively. I think the reason one of them is red is due to the corruption from Sja-anat. If I recall correctly, there is a huge form swimming beneath the beads around the oathgate which leads them to believe that is the Unmade. The specific order to the two spren is just reasoned conjecture on my part. Nothing firm via WoB to back it up.
Personally, I never saw Adolin as particularly close to Elhokar; I don’t think he would be overcome with unbearable grief in any situation. Grief, sure. But grief as though he just lost his best friend in the world? I don’t see it.
@5: How about if Renarin gets slaughtered? How many readers would expect Adolin to readily move away from *that*, to focus on his “duty”? How many readers would think, if he were to do it, this wouldn’t be a bomb waiting to explode? Granted, Adolin wasn’t particularly close to Elhokar, but let’s picture someone he actually is close to.
Have we all forgotten how Adolin reacted when Dalinar was *killed* by Szeth? By foolishly attacking Szeth, blinded by his own tears, only to almost be slaughtered? Did he think his “duty” and his “responsibility” surpassed the shock of thinking Dalinar dead? Nope. They didn’t. Adolin forgot all of his training (to move and to focus on his tasks), tried to avenge his father against he foe he knew he couldn’t beat and when he is about to die, his last words go to Dalinar: “I am sorry I failed”.
I think this scene tells us much about Adolin. He is a human being with emotions, not a robot to blindly follow his training no matter what happens. We’ve got glimpses already of where his buttons may be.
Lindsey, me too, when my daughter was little I had to read it to her every night; Aubree, thank you for that!
Re: Cultivation, and how she fits into all this. I am very curious about this. Everything seems to involve Honor, even though the spren of the Knights Radiant seem to involve spren who would seem closer to Cultivation,. Wyndle and Maya are literally cultivation spren. I find it all very confusing.
Nale– who has been around since the beginning of the conflict between the three Shards on Roshar– completely discounts Cultivation, and is ready to hand the planet over to Odium by right of conquest because Honor is dead– yet Cultivation is not dead, and Odium hasn’t won his conquest yet. In fact, Nale is helping him with the conquest so he can win. Yet Dalinar was groomed by Cultivation to resist Odium, and Lift gets Stormlight by food, so Cultivation’s fingerprints are on the fight against Odium. So why doesn’t Nale think Cultivation counts?
Are you saying that the huge spren are the Unmade? I had thought they were the corrupted controllers of the platform.
@6 – I should probably have been clearer. I don’t think Adolin would react horribly to any situation in which Elhokar died. His father or brother is something else entirely.
Some thoughts:
Do we actually know that arrival of Aimians on Roshar pre-dated the exodus from Ashyn? Since there are all those WoBs about at least the Dysian Aimians not being native to the planet. IIRC there is no word either way about the Siah.
Concerning grief, and other emotions which should logically be experienced by the characters, I feel that leaving them out unless it is super-important to the narrative to dwell on them is a significant weakness of Brandon’s writing, which doesn’t allow the characters to come across as entirely “alive” and real in the circumstances where such omissions are obvious – like, for instance, after Jasnah’s presumed “death”. The only characters who seemed to grieve for her were Navani – seen from outside and Shallan in her PoV. Dalinar and Adolin seemed completely untouched by their loss, to the degree that it felt unnatural even before it was revealed in Oathbringer that there was significant closeness between them and her. Ditto Ehlokar – even if he didn’t care about her as a sibling, her getting _murdered_ should have kicked his paranoia into an overdrive and resulted in _some_ reaction on page. All of this felt very contrived and artificial to me.
This also applies to us not being shown Adolin’s reaction to Shallan’s fall into that chasm, after he chose to save his father over her, Dalinar suddenly not thinking about Navani after their marriage, the scene of Jasnah’s return being left out and everybody with a PoV except for Shallan just taking it in a stride, and Dalinar and Navani being cosily content in the Oathbringer epilogue, even though Ehlokar was so important to both of them!
And the thing is – depicting emotions that characters should have been plausibly feeling doesn’t need to take much space. Shallan’s and Navani’s grief over the loss of Jasnah in WoR was conveyed in a couple of sentences here and there and it was completely sufficient – which made the non-reaction of other concerned people all the more bizarre and jarring.
Austin @5:
I agree that Adolin didn’t seem all that close to Ehlokar, but surely the fall of his native city, the capital of his country was reason enough for grief, survivor’s guilt and misplaced self-recrimination. Also, this is another missed opportunity which a _short_ chapter depicting Jasnah’s return from Ehlokar’s PoV could have clarified – how Kholins functioned as a family. I guess that Renarin’s and Jasnah’s flashbacks in their eventual books might shed some light on that, but by that time Ehlokar will be only a faint memory for many readers and it won’t have much impact.
Nightheron @7:
I am 100% with you about Cultivation.
Indeed! His argument about the “right of conquest” applying to Odium while Cultivation is still around doesn’t even make any sense – so, I guess either he is just that crazy, or, maybe he thinks that her not overtly interacting with people and not fighting back in as obvious ways as Honor did voids ;) her claim, somehow.
@10 Isilel
I believe it is mentioned in the novels that individuals “in the know” mostly assume Cultivation has abandoned the humans after the death of Honor. In reality she is working actively in the background covertly, but the official tag line does seem to be that Cultivation does not care and is not a threat to Odium.
As a general aside, Spider-man Far From Home spoilers below:
Seeing what Mysterio could do makes me all the more excited and hopeful to see a lightweaver fully oathed and confident in their powers in a fight!
I would like to know if Brandon gets feedback from these rereads, especially on how he handles relationships among his characters.
@9: I agree then. Adolin being devastated over Elhokar whom we hardly ever witness inter-act with might have been odd. We do see him being devastated when he thinks Dalinar is dead and also when Renarin is crushed by the Thunderclast.
@10: I agree with you on the importance of featuring grief within the narrative, even if it only amounts to a few sentences, in order to portray more realistic human reactions. I find Brandon tends to write his characters as if they were evolving inside their own heads as opposed to their conflict also having an external component. This external component is what I felt ran low in Oathbringer.
I also agree Adolin might not have been close to Elhokar, but his city was dear to his heart. Hence, my thoughts the absence of reaction on Adolin’s part, combined with Brandon emphasizing on multiple occasions how the character was mindset to move and not to grief, tell us something about his character which may not end up being positive.
@12: Honestly, probably not.
I have to agree with Isilel about the missing grief scenes. Just comparing Navani’s reaction to the loss of her daughter versus the loss of her son, it felt completely different. And the fact that Jasnah ‘died’ and came back should have messed with her when she heard about Elhokar; she should be dealing with some sort of desperate hope that he’ll turn up alive, even if she logically knows that this one probably real. She should not be taking it in stride a paragraph later.
@12: well these rereads are done by some of his betas, so reader reaction here may influence some of their beta-ing. Probably.
Akinkolade @12 – To some extent he does; members of his team try to keep tabs on the fandom, and this is one of the venues they track as they can. If nothing else, a number of the beta readers hang out here, and if they are persuaded by an argument they’ll include that input on the next book. That doesn’t necessarily mean he’ll do anything different, but he’ll know.
@12: And sometimes his reaction is “Yes! I feel your pain. I love your anger. Please give me more of it!” Evil laughter as he continues to stomp on our hearts and doesn’t change anything complained about.
I’ve been reading the Mistborn annotations lately, and there was a comment in one of those along the lines of some readers were expecting to see something on-page, but it wouldn’t have fit the book he was writing, so anyone that wanted to could just assume those scenes happened off-page. I think that might be true here, too. The scenes with people showing grief don’t fit what BS is writing, so we can just assume they happen off-page.
@10 Isilel
I agree with you. I personally don’t need a chapter on Jasnah’s return, and I can see why it’s mostly covered in MC Shallan’s POV, but I would like to see and feel the impact this had on other characters here and there. As @14 necessary_eagle points out, Navani’s feelings and thoughts at learning of her son’s death are flat and fleeting.
@11 Scath
Hmm… If that’s the case, Nale should flip sides when he discovers that Cultivation is still active. He’s already met Lift. But of course we don’t know yet what went on with Cultivation all those centuries ago, and the Heralds are crazy, so how Nale will interpret all this is up in the air.
@19 nightheron
I whole heartily admit how Nale will take information is up in the air. Just to add, I believe everyone thinking Cultivation is “out to lunch” is still very much the main narrative being thrown around. Odium when confronting Dalinar notices what Cultivation did and even then didn’t consider that her acting against him. He just comments he would have done things differently and then disregards her. If I recall correctly even Wyndle says she doesn’t care anymore. So even though I believe Cultivation is very much acting in the background covertly, everyone else on Roshar thinks she is not.
I would add Dalinar’s reaction to Elhokar’s death was also… lacking. While I understand different people will grief differently, two weeks isn’t a long time to grief a child or a beloved nephew one loves as a son. If one of my children were to tragically die, I can assure everyone I wouldn’t have the heart to celebrate a wedding nor would I be strolling around light-hearted, focused on learning how to read.
Back in WoR, I theorized Dalinar would have a very hard time grieving over Elhokar since he was Gavilar’s son and he already feels responsible for Gavilar’s death. I thought this guilt would eat him alive, but in OB, Elhokar dies without his family seemingly needing to actually take a moment to grief for him.
Now I really feel sorry for him.
@17: My brother, a high school math teacher, has a water bottle labeled “Students’ Tears” that he brings out every exam season.
Also, I would like to point out Rick Riordan’s dedication page in The House of Hades:
I think being a good author requires a dose of Schadenfreude, for both your characters and your readers.
As Alice noted, Adolin does grieve on screen. During the Battle of Thaylen City, Adolin encounters Navani before he goes to fight the Thunderclast. He acknowledges to her that Elhokar did not survive. They hugged each other. Adolin expressed his grief for Elhokar at this moment. In RL, everybody grieves in their own way. When my father died several years ago from the effects of dementia, I did not cry at the funeral. But when my wife’s grandmother died, she cried at the funeral. This does not mean I am not human. It just means I grieve or process things differently.
I want to know why Azure came to Kholinar. Was it because she learned that Vasher/Zahel used to be in Kholinar? If that is the case, her information may have been outdated. I got the impression (and I am not sure why) that Zahel had been on the Shattered Plains for many years. What would Zahel have done had Azure come to the Shattered Plains before events the main story started? Would he have disappeared upon seeing her? Or since she is looking for NightBlood, they would have talked for a bit and then she would have left?
Unlike Gepeto @2, I enjoyed the entire Shadesmar journey. I think it helped all Rosharan characters (human and spren grow mentally). Syl came to acknowledge that all Cryptics were not horrible in a disgusting way (as opposed to horrible in an evil way). And I think it did well for Kaladin to see Syl and Pattern as more human than spren. I also found the shopping amusing.
Thanks for reading my musings.
AndrewHB
aka the musespren
I was much more bothered by the apparent lack of both grief and joy by nearly everyone over what happened with Jasnah than by any of Adolin’s reactions. Her return felt almost like a non-issue. I also feel like everyone (except maybe Navani) would have been more likely to mourn Jasnah than to mourn Elhokar. He may have been King in name but both enemies and allies would be more likely to react strongly if Dalinar were killed.
@8, I thought in the book it said outright that the 30 foot tall spren were the Oathgate “keepers” and were corrupted. That underwater underbead spren was maybe an unmade.
I believe we may see Adolin and possibly Renerin go crazy pants when they have OB read to them. Who will do that I wonder: Shallan? Navani? or Dalinar himself.
@23: Well, I said I didn’t dislike it, but I didn’t like it either. There were some good moments and some very bad ones such as the shopping… Looking back I mostly like the insights were got on Adolin since this part of the narrative is, and by far, the one where Brandon fleshes him out the most.
My thoughts are Shadesmar could have been, should have been, more engaging.
@24: Why should they mourn Jasnah more than Elhokar?
Who will read Oathbringer? Now, that is a very good question…
It could be Dalinar since this is his book and he may feel it is his duty to read it. I can picture Dalinar reuniting his family members and close advisers to do the first read of his book much like he insisted Adolin/Renarin listened to the WoK. I can believe Dalinar may not think he needs to tell his sons in advance about what happened as he may think it better to wait for the book which would contain the whole story.
It could be Navani since Dalinar may ask her to do it. She is likely to know the content of the book in advance as she is revising it.
Shallan though? I am not seeing it. I don’t see how she would be involved with it. I suspect she’ll hear the book at the same time as Adolin.
How will the boys react? Tough one. It is either they won’t react at all or they will go crazy pants. We do know Evi’s death still is a sour spot for Adolin, we do know he still carries anger towards the event so will it manifest once he hears the truth? That depends on where Brandon wants to take the character… With Adolin, he likes to let the character react without necessarily planning for it, so what will Brandon’s evaluation of Adolin’s character tell him on how he should react?
@2 – congrats on the shout-out in the post!
@25 – people’s reactions to the in-world Oathbringer is one of my biggest questions for the next book. I think it would be unrealistic for Adolin to not react – he hero-worships Dalinar and thinks he cannot compare to him. To now realise what atrocities his father committed – including accidentally killing Evi – has to be gut-wrenching in some way.
Do we know if Dalinar will write about seeing the Nightwatcher and Cultivation, and how his memories were pruned and came back to him? And that is why the Blackthorn disappeared? Will he be believed? Not the part about the Nightwatcher – everyone knows about Nightwatcher. But will they believe he interacted with Cultivation? How will his sons react to knowing Dalinar actually forgot about their mother for years?
Is Dalinar going to write about Odium? If he does, at least Renarin will believe him, because he saw the alternate future where Dalinar became Odium’s champion.
@26: Thanks!
All I know is Dalinar is writing the truth about Evi’s death in the book. This is all I remember Brandon saying about the content of Dalinar’s book.
You’re just doing that to make people my age feel bad, right? (No, I’m not really feeling bad.) You do realize I’ll be long dead when/if Brandon gets around to writing those, right? We’re at least 20 years away from the end of the Stormlight Archive itself.
It’s worth mentioning we’ve seen one spren killed in this narrative. By Kaladin and Sylphrena. That was a minor Voidspren, not one of the Unmade. Consider, however, the presence of Nightblood, which is by WoB the most powerfully-invested object in the Cosmere, in the hands of Szeth, who can at least potentially channel more Investiture than Kaladin because he has both a spren connection and Nightblood.
@28 Carl
Why would Nightblood allow Szeth to use more Investiture? I would have thought it would be less since Nightblood eats Investiture.
Thanks for the reply, Alice/Lyndsey/Aubree! I appreciate the behind-the-scenes look of the beta-process. The love triangle was definitely a popular topic in fandom, so I appreciate you all sharing some background about the evolution of the Veil/Kaladin attraction. And of Elhokar being demonstrably dead (although I don’t know if “shoving” Gavinor is the same as “nudging him out of the way” :-) ).
Re: the Oathgate spren – I got the impression that Sja-Anat had corrupted just one of them, the one that was described as red. Later when they encounter the Oathgate spren on the Shadesmar side of Thaylenah, the spren are described as “a multitude of colors” and “shimmering an oily black”.
Re: grieving – I’m fine with how Brandon is writing Adolin and his processing of his grief. I would like to see others display more grief for Elhokar (and I would have liked to see how everyone handled Jasnah’s return, as well).
Is it just me or does Kharbranth get routinely ignored when listing cities with strange patterns in the stone?
@RogerPavelle
For the same reason that a spren bond does: because it gives him a connection to the Cognitive Realm. Nightblood is (by WoB) a conscious imitation of a Shardblade. Vasher and his wife (I’m making the assumption) were competent, so their Shardblade should have some version of everything a Radiant blade can do. Obviously this is speculation.
Hmm … what if you drew Nightblood during a Highstorm? Could you wield it indefinitely, if you were right in a Perpendicularity?
@32 Carl
I don’t remember anyone bonding or having Connection to Nightblood (in either Warbreaker or SA). Rather, it decides it likes some people and therefore is willing to talk with them/work somewhat towards their goals/not kill them. And, once drawn, even that goes out the window since Nightblood starts consuming all investiture around it.
@RogerPavelle: “Speculation,” like I said. Also “potentially.”
We also know that Nightblood is the most Invested object in the Cosmere. Which makes it more powerful than the Bands of Mourning. Nightblood therefore adds Lord Ruler-level power to whoever wields it.
I think that’s one reason Nale got rid of Nightblood–even in his madness he knew it made him dangerously powerful.
Carl @32:
Vasher and Shashara were only a few centuries old when they created Nightblood and would have had no experience of a _Radiant_ shardblade capabilities – they would have only seen deadblades during their soujourn on Roshar and therefore tried to make one with Awakening. There is also no indication that Nighblood confers ability to use investiture on whoever holds it. On the contrary, Szeth was warned not to draw it until he became capable of infusing stormlight as a Skybreaker squire. Nightblood may be very powerful, but so far it seems to have a very limited focus – namely destruction, performed by itself. It does not channel investiture for anybody else, only draws it from it’s wielder and it’s victims for it’s own use.
I somewhat agree with you about Nale, though IMHO it is more that he feels trapped and wants somebody to have ability to kill him for good.
@Isilel: here we agree. I’ve posted here before that I think Nale is setting up Szeth to kill him.
Still behind, but thanks again for all your work with the recaps. And congrats to Gepeto on the shoutout :) It’s kind of neat to see the discussion here flow into the posts!
Just a few more things I want to note about this chapter remembering things that popped out on my first read through or stand out on a reread.
My first read through I was like, why are there three spren what’s the corded one ooooooooh! Not sure what I had been expecting, even though Syl had literally described it as swinging a corpse around by her feet, somehow I hadn’t pictured it as literally swinging a corpse around by her feet. So, when a Shardbearer in the physical realm calls summons their Sword , does the corpse disappear in the cognitive realm to manifest as a Sword in the physical, then the corpse reappear in the cognitive when dismissed?
This put me in mind of Ash and her art-destroying ways. I don’t think it a coincidence that Ash mars her portraits to look like deadeyes. But why?
My first clue on my first read that Azure was a Space Alien. Well, an interdimensional traveller, at any rate (I was not aware of the Cosmere, and hadn’t yet read Warbreaker, or heard the term “worldhopper”). It soon would become apparent that Zahel was a Space Alien, too, and Sword-Nimi was actually a Space Sword.
And lastly– air is weird. Spren don’t need air, but there is air in Shadesmar. Air apparently doesn’t exist in bead form, it just exists. But it must have a soul, because Soulcasters have such an easy time working with it (stone buildings are made from air, and Jasnah can conjure pretty much anything she wants out of thin air). So if people walk around in Shadesmar constantly bumping into the soul(s) of air because it is filling all the space, why aren’t they constantly feeling the impressions of air?